I am making this topic because I really don't know what rogues are supposed to be. According to the help files, they are a tier lower in offensive ability than fighters/berserkers, but are more dexterous to compensate for it.

Quote:

The biggest advantage a rogue has is his acrobatics. A rogue is extremely hard to hit, as he can dodge and sometimes even riposte attacks against him. Rogues may also kick their enemies in combat at times, dealing extra damage. Rogues are good fighters, but they lack the staying power of the fighter and the bruteness of a berserker.

NEUTRAL:
Naturally, since there are one of the two dual wielding classes offered on Realms, people will probably make a comparison if they'd like to play a dual wielding class. At the moment, if you put in some neutral stats (Original: 18 18 9 8 3), you will find that the ranger and rogue are basically the same as far as stats go:
Their stat cycles are the same, with exception of the order in which you gain your stats. They gain the same attack power bonuses too.

Code:

		case RANGER:
		case THIEF:
		case ASSASSIN:
		case ROGUE:
		case MONK:
			attackPower = strength.getCur() + dexterity.getCur() + (level * 4);

PROS:
* They currently have the best chance to dodge in the game. Which should equate to more riposting.
* Pick is awesome.

CONS:
* They get 1 HP/MP per level less than rangers (which, in the end, is 39 less MP/HP).
* They have a 5 second casting time.
* Disarm is useless, unless you are pkilling. Rogues DO get a bonus in chance to disarm, but GL finding mobs that even wield weapons to skill it up.
* Small penalty in chance to kick.

Verdict
So remind me why you'd even want to level a rogue?? I'd totally trade them in for a circler (which still has good attack power, can prevent hits, better armor reduction, kick better, and riposte/parry) or a ranger (which has MP to handle more casting, hits just as well, and can still riposte/parry) any day.

Of course, I obviously have never leveled one before. So if anyone plays them, some input (aside from the known, ie. "lololz they suck, don't play them") would be nice or feedback on how they could be balanced ... or if there is something I am missing that makes them worth playing.

PS. This is all ignoring what the new magic system might change, of course Just putting some thoughts out there, since I think some of it is irrelevant to the new incoming magic system.

Haha, thanks Usagi.

It was stated before that Rangers would be better than rogues with the skill changes in the mud. But it's not because they have to be, but because tweaking the formulas would be complicated without testing.

All I know is that parry is raising very slowly on my Rogue so my dodge isn't very good, and my reposte is nearly absent especially against mobs at my level, which is what I should be fighting a majority of the time anyway.

So basically; Rogues need to reposte and dodge more.

To me there are roles for each class both in terms of combat and in roleplay. The thief is the jack of all trades with the unique steal ability, the assassin the heavy hitter, the ranger a strong casting hybrid, and the rogue the finesse and grace fighter. But as it is I feel clumsy, and I don't feel the play-style is the same as it was in previous versions when I could count on dodge and reposte to help me in combat.

I've always liked the idea of the rogue from a rp standpoint but have always hated their hp/mp distribution.

Back when they were first put in they were the only class that could kick, ambush and riposte but the class has kind of faded into obscurity with all the changes that have taken place over time.

I'm sure more changes will continue to be made since Dom and Bane have stated they want to "balance" classes more. (Of course, balancing classes is an endless quest in and of itself as Oce has pointed out)

As it is, I think of the rogue as basically a ranger-thief multiclass without the experience penalty. And well that's all well and good, it would be nice if it had some unique quality that differentiated it from the other classes.

Rogues were designed by me to be like Usagi said, another dual-wielding class, and also for role-playing, as Lum stated.

However, it is my opinion that with the advent of skills and other changes to the basic core structure of RoH, the idea of a "rogue" class is completely obsolete. I think they should be removed. They were built with the old system in mind. People who want to play this kind of class, should play a fighter, ranger, or thief, and pick appropriate skills....and if they want to role-play, then do so.

I read somebody posting something about class "kits"...if anything, "rogue" should be one of these kits. Or something similar.

I wouldn't say that the class is out of luck completely. It's the finesse class, and it's the counter to the Fighter. I'd compare rogues to assassins as far as ability and play-style, except rogues tend to deal out damage over time while an assassin tries to dump as much as they can up front.

Neither has the casting potential to lay down stuns or use circle like a Ranger or Fighter could, or wear armor strong enough to soak up the damage coming their way, so they have to rely on their dodge to avoid damage. But because Rogues have to suffer combat a bit longer than an Assassin or Thief they have a boost to their dodge.

This effects Rogues in two ways. It makes that extra damage thrown out by an Assassin's spells to kill the target quickly and puts it into mend-wounds to help the Rogue survive the protracted combat, making kick important to augment damage. It also makes the reposte valuable to deal the extra damage needed to really bring down the target.

There's also an array of stealth classes available:

Rogue
Assassin
Cleric/Assassin
Ranger
Thief
Thief/Mage
Mage/Thief
Fighter/Thief
Mage/Assassin
Cleric of Kamira

And I just don't think the Rogue can be replace in either play style of RP value by any of the other ones because they simply don't play the same.

The entire class system should probably be scrapped and reworked from the ground up. Same with races. I assume that will probably be done at some point, so really right now, doing little things to this class or that class is just putting on chewing gum and rubber bands.

In fact, i know this wouldn't happen any time soon, but once all the new spells and other systems are put in place and the code is standardized, i'd almost say it'd be best to just rebuild an entirely new RoH....new world..all that...keeping some similar stuff, but designing the cities and world from the ground up with what we can now do with the code completely in mind from the BEGINNING.

The problem was we started with a shitty code base (mordor), and we didn't know how shitty it was until we all wised up. :P

I understand what you're saying, but to the majority of players they don't care about the code, just the game they've played for over a decade. If this mud reset with the code it had in 2000 I'd still play it.

Ocelot wrote:

The entire class system should probably be scrapped and reworked from the ground up. Same with races. I assume that will probably be done at some point, so really right now, doing little things to this class or that class is just putting on chewing gum and rubber bands. In fact, i know this wouldn't happen any time soon, but once all the new spells and other systems are put in place and the code is standardized, i'd almost say it'd be best to just rebuild an entirely new RoH....new world..all that...keeping some similar stuff, but designing the cities and world from the ground up with what we can now do with the code completely in mind from the BEGINNING. The problem was we started with a shitty code base (mordor), and we didn't know how shitty it was until we all wised up. :P

Are you volunteering to come back and help code and build again?

On another note, I know it's a bit of a ways off, but I figure with rogues eventually losing mp and gaining skills to make up for that...that will increase the differentiation between them and other classes like Rangers.

-Bane