Some issues/glitches/abnormalities I have noticed with the paladin turn ability.

1) The progression of the turn ability seems to be a little slow, even at low levels
2) The success rate of turn doesn’t seem to take piety OR level into account as says it does in the help file, it seems to be purely based off of your turn skill
3) After reaching ‘decent’ it has become very difficult to raise the skill level

I fight a good amount of undead(lighthouse ghosts, revenants, everything in Highport graveyard, even mobs in Death Knight temple when I was lower) and have had literally a handful of successful turns, none of which were disintegrates. It seems the only way to raise turn for it to be useful is the fight exclusively undead.

It seems that at this current rate, paladins cannot turn mobs that would be worth fighting near their current level. I fought lighthouse ghosts/revenants for about an hour each with no successful turn attempts and only 2 or 3 skill increases at the most(both sessions combined). Not to mention other mobs in the Highport graveyard with no success.

As I mentioned above, it doesn’t appear that piety or level is really considered since I can barely turn things I needle even with 25 piety.

Possible solutions:

A) Slightly increase the progression of the paladin turn ability.

This would allow paladins to more effectively turn mobs that are near their level range. Currently, turn is useless for me to level with since it never works and causes a slight delay. I’ve noticed when grouping with other classes with turn their abilities are better than mine even with similar skill levels, even if I out level them by a few levels.

B) Slightly increase the effects piety and level have on turn.

This would allow paladins that out level mobs by a significant margin(3 or more levels) to turn said mobs with more success.
Level has always played a significant part of skill success and damage in the past, so if there are plans to phase out this part of Mordor in favor of the new Realms system, then this option should probably be skipped, unless you just increase the effect piety has on success.

For piety heavy paladins, maybe for every bonus in piety, give a 3% increase in the chance to turn regardless of level/skill. If we are keeping the level system, maybe give another 2% per every level above the mob, to a cap of 6-8%. So then at the very least, someone with 25 piety and 3 levels on a mob would have a 12-15%ish chance of turning something significantly lower than them, with a 6-8% chance of disintegrating. Seems reasonable. Or does it?

C) Do nothing.

Turn could be working as intended. Might get dusted for wasting time.


More to come on paladins, including a look at lay on hands!

One of the problems you might be encountering are undead that are more resistant to turn than others. There is a similar flag for undeads to make them harder to circle.

All that aside, I think we may eventually work toward making turn do progressive damage rather than just a flat 50% or 100% (in the case of disintegration).

Progressive damage is a great idea, maybe increase the max % of a mobs hp you can turn based on your level, piety, and skill level in turn.

My only real issue with turn as it is currently is that it has become almost useless as an offensive ability. In any situation where turn would work, normal attacks prove to be just as effective, considering the level of the mob that I can turn with any consistency is almost 8 or 10 levels below me. I would imagine other skills like touch of death or harm for deathknights would have similar issues, although I am not familiar with how fast these skills increase.

I guess what I am really trying to say is this:

Since the changes to the combat system, as well as armor/weapons and other changes to how things "work", the progression of these offensive skills has fallen behind the speed of leveling (so I think). Unless you are fighting exclusively undead mobs to level, turn will most likely be useless to you.

Diversity and specialization is something that Mordor has always lacked, and I will have a post soon on other skill changes that could spark some ideas for more diverse classes and skills.

Personally, I don't know how different the formula is for paladin and cleric turn, but I think its basically the same formula with clerics getting a 3 level bonus to their turn. Personally I think 50% turn is perfectly fine, but I wouldnt be opposed to say me turning a level 30 mob for only say 25% or 30%. Going above 50% seems like too much to me, as clerics and paladins are already pretty beefy, despite the fact that we are lacking (Bane's words but yea effing right lol) due to the damage system being in but not the magic system. I have however definately seen a change in the turn rates since recent changes have taken place, but its not anything major, in fact I feel it balances it out some. I think that Lkuzar just needs a few levels to see how well turn really works. Get to 16 to get a good feel for it before you make your judgements, it will get better I can promise you that.

What you said about the 3 level bonus is probably true, the other players I grouped with that could turn better were both clerics. I'm almost 17 now and I still "feel" like the progression is still off a bit. Turn is a pretty devestating skill (would work every time before the new skill-up system, almost purely level based) so I think it should be toned down to an extent, either by reducing damage or by reducing the success rate.

What should be done, is check the progression code for turn to make sure it's ok, and if we add anything to turn effects, the only thing we should do is add in a stun or mass stun effect on top of the 50%...so it could be 0% (failed turn), 0% damage but stunned x amount sec, 50% damage, 50%+stun, 100% (disintegrate).....also....turn at higher skill levels should effect multiple undead in the room...i.e. 1d4 undead randomly chosen, in order of lowest level to highest...i.e. two lighthouse ghosts a ghoul, and a vampire in a room....roll 1d4, get 3...only the ghosts and the ghoul get hit by the turn, not the vampire.

That could work, maybe give to paladins level 16+ or 19+? Higher levels need something to look forward too, so perhaps instead of adding tons of new skills and code we can just increase the power of already existing skills that don't scale in damage/effectiveness with level, such as pray and turn, and im sure there are numerous others.

Ok so I went with Lkuzar a few places to things he should be able to turn. At slained dwarven lords, which are level 16, he failed 100% of the time, which unless the turn formula was toned down, should not be happening. My cleric was turning them at level 15 and I know Joan was turning them at least 3/4 at level 16. So then we go to revenants, which are level 13ish, 3 levels lower then Lkuzar, and 100% failure rate. No way that this should be happening like this. Something must be up or was changed big time.

He's turning like a level 12 is why. Either he's not using it enough, or it doesn't go up fast enough. I'll look into adjusting the rate at which it increases, but I've been busy.

-Bane

disaron wrote:

Ok so I went with Lkuzar a few places to things he should be able to turn. At slained dwarven lords, which are level 16, he failed 100% of the time, which unless the turn formula was toned down, should not be happening. My cleric was turning them at level 15 and I know Joan was turning them at least 3/4 at level 16. So then we go to revenants, which are level 13ish, 3 levels lower then Lkuzar, and 100% failure rate. No way that this should be happening like this. Something must be up ....or was changed big time.,

Let me say something really quick. We do not make changes without informing people. It was done in the past, primarily because discussion with the majority of the playerbase was a waste of time, since most everybody was 15 and could not see past their own character, or took everything personally. Instead we would pick key players and talk to them about it, such as Bodhi, Luminaire, Mekila, Goatboy, watchers, etc..rather than talk about it with EVERYBODY. But it's not done like that right now, and never will be again. It is pointless to do that when your current playerbase is a bunch of playtesters. Why would we not let the playtesters know what they're testing? That's retarded. The days of "OMG OMFG OMFG OMG OMG DMS OMG! CHANGING SHIT OMG OMFG!" are over. Please stop assuming that and complaining about it. It's stupid and counterproductive.