Gradius Clerics vs. Aramon Clerics

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delta
Watcher
Gradius Clerics vs. Aramon Clerics
Tuesday, March 27th, 2007 at 8:20 pmEdits: 3   Last Edit: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 9:07 pm
My comparison of the two clerics (please let me know if I am missing anything):

NOTE: I have received great feedback about this post, but please read carefully! I have received many comments about "missing" things that are clearly mentioned below. Thanks!

Healing

Gradius clerics have weakened healing powers compared to other clerics.
Aramon clerics have weakened healing powers when healing other people.

Gradius clerics have weakened healing powers when healing trolls, orcs, etc.
Aramon clerics have weakened healing powers and self-inflicted damage when healing people of good alignment.

Winner: Aramon clerics. Their loss of healing abilities only results when they heal other players.


Aramon 1, Gradius 0


Alignment

Gradius clerics must remain neutral, or their powers will wane. At light blue or pinkish aura, Gradius clerics lose the ability to smother. At more extreme auras, Gradius clerics lose the power to conjure.

Aramon clerics must remain evil, or their powers will wane. Aramon clerics lose abilities when they lose their evil aura.

Winner: Aramon clerics. It is much easier to camp out in one area and maintain an evil aura, than to run back and forth trying to maintain a grey aura. If there were more grey mobs in the game, this might be mitigated, but currently, there are very few neutral mobs.


Aramon 2, Gradius 0


Pets

Gradius clerics can conjure earth pets, which gain nice abilities at higher levels.
Aramon clerics can animate undead pets, which also have nice abilities at higher levels.
Reportedly, Gradius' earth pets are more powerful at high level. This would make sense, as conjure is the same command used by druids. I'm not sure if this increased power is large enough to merit a win for Gradius. Will check into this, and I appreciate more feedback.

Winner: Tie


Aramon 2.5, Gradius 0.5


Fighting

Gradius clerics are better at fighting, so theoretically they should have better thac0 than Aramon clerics. I have not confirmed this.
Aramon clerics must wear light armor, and may have worse thac0 than Aramon clerics.

Winner: Gradius clerics. Assuming the above assumptions are true, Gradius clerics have an advantage in fighting.


Aramon 2.5, Gradius 1.5


Miscellaneous Abilities

Gradius clerics have the ability to earth-smother, dealing a large amount of damage. However, this ability has a timer.
Aramon clerics have the ability enthrall, which is similar to charm and hypnotize. Aramon clerics are also not aggroed by undead.
Edit: High level Aramon clerics have the ability of bloodfusion.

Winner: Tie. Gradius clerics' ability to earth-smother is more useful than enthrall. However, the ability to sit in an undead area and not be aggroed is very useful for high level Aramon clerics as a way to gain experience, gold, and items that would normally be difficult for other classes to obtain. Bloodfusion is limited to high levels, and does not aid in fighting; while it is an awesome ability, it also has penalties, and is limited to undead players.


Aramon 3, Gradius 2


Roleplaying

Dwarves are my favorite class to roleplay, and there is much roleplay information out there for dwarves and for Gradius. However, it is just as easy to roleplay an evil Aramon cleric.

Winner: Tie


Aramon 3.5, Gradius 2.5



Verdict: Aramon clerics are the winners. However, you might notice that if the alignment section was taken out, then both clerics would be tied. This implies that Aramon clerics are not necessarily "stronger" than Gradius clerics; rather, it suggests that Aramon clerics are easier to level up than Gradius clerics are.

Bane
Dungeonmaster
Re: Gradius Clerics vs. Aramon Clerics
Wednesday, March 28th, 2007 at 12:14 am
now how about a reply from 1) an aramon cleric and 2) an impartial third party Wink




I'll take these into note...but personally I'm working on cleaning up the code to 1) get rid of crashes and 2) release to the public at a future date. I'll let dom handle balance issues Smile

I might agree with the limited range on alignment though....perhaps we could broaden it slightly.

-Bane

Hanzo
Watcher
Re: Gradius Clerics vs. Aramon Clerics
Wednesday, March 28th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
I used to play a Gradius (lv 16), but no longer, so things may be different. You make a good argument and I agree that aura range restrictions could use a little boost/a greater variety of neutral monsters should be put in.

True balance is hard to achieve, however, so slight inequalities are to be expected. Also, as knowledge of the game grows, these inequalities are likely to diminish.

You might want to consider a few other things in the overall rating. One is unlisted abilities. You have covered bloodfusion, but it is possible that Gradius gains another skill later on that brings balance to the force (sorry George Lucas). I'm not saying that it does/will, that will be for the truly impartial to comment on.

Another thing concerns the pets. I'm not sure, but just going on intuition, I believe Gradius pets are magical, while Aramon pets are physical? Meaning, Gradius pets should be able to hit physical immunes, while Aramon pets cannot. I didn't have the opportunity to try it before, but it would be nice if someone can confirm.

Lastly, is item availability. Dwarves get access to holy dwarven maces. It is also less likely for Aramons to be using blue-aura aligned weapons, armors, and holding items. This seems to be in favor of Gradius.



/begin bias

As a Ceris cleric player, I would like to point out that a similar aura range affects Ceris. The second I step out of neutral aura, I lose my bonuses to healing. This is on par with gaining a penalty, as that healing is greatly depended upon for the lack of a pet, heavy armor, and awesome thac0. However, when I reach extreme auras, I gain ANOTHER penalty as well. I have actually LOST mp at a high level casting rejuvenate on myself before. Lightening the aura restrictions may help Ceris become more viable as well.

/end bias

Arcen
Watcher
Re: Gradius Clerics vs. Aramon Clerics
Wednesday, March 28th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
So, first off, I have a level 26 Aramon cleric, by the name of Arc. Secondly I have a level 13 Gradius cleric, by the name of Lazarus, he has relevels till 16. I started lazarus before arc, and of course while leveling hiim i noticed how alignment auras and being off alignment most of the time strongly affected my ability to play the class. After deleveling a lot, i made a new character, the aramon cleric. Of course having to stick to one alignment, and having good vigging as long as i was red, made this class a lot easier to play than the gradius. Since getting high level on aramon, i've tried going back to the gradius cleric because im interested to see him at higher levels, however i find it really hard to get used to him again.
I agree with most of Delta's post, and of course offer a similar suggestion of having the range at which aura affects them increased, and in fact this is something I think i've suggested before =P. Now my orignal suggestion was having their vigging affected only when they hit reddish/bluish, and smother being able to be used while light pink/light blue as well. Cause that skill helps them to get their alignment back on track. Anyone who's played a gradius can agree with the fact that if you try to group with other people, and just go kill for the fastest exp you can get, you'll end up regretting it afterwards. Cause unless the group helps you to realign from blood red or royal blue..it's one of the hardest things to do by urself as a gradius. Really bad vigging, no pets, no smother. Of course, as hanzo said i'd like to see some high level skill imputed(similar to how high aramon get bloodfusion) but that's prolly asking a bit too much. I've heard gradius are extremely good at high level, but as a high level aramon, i couldnt see it being better than what I have now.

Monster
Re: Gradius Clerics vs. Aramon Clerics
Thursday, March 29th, 2007 at 12:59 pmEdits: 3   Last Edit: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 1:16 pm
Healing:

Aramons vig other people for 7-10 hp and if they are blue aura get shocked for 1-10 hp. So in the case of groups, Gradius clerics are much more viable.

Just imagine this scenario, you are an aramon cleric grouped with people killing reddish mobs. You hit the gray alignment and they hit the blue alignments. You now not only have the penalty on healing others but the penalty of not being red. In other words you vig people for 5 and mend for 10.

Tack on being a multi-class and your healing is disturbing in certain situations.

I'm not sure if this is other Aramons but I also have a 5 second cast timer.

Alignments:

I do agree that Gradius clerics smother ability should be extended to pinkish and light blue auras. This goes for all neutral classes since it is so insanely hard to stay neutral.

Pets:

Gradius clerics win this hands down. Not only are their pets magical but they can cast level 4s at higher levels. Also, Gradius pets raise earth realm! I also believe Aramon pet timers are greater than Gradius timers.

Fighting:

Aramons have terrible thac0 and must wear light armor. Aramons also are not aggrosed by undeads.

Misc Abilities:

Smother is one of the most versatile abilities in the game which also scales to level.

As for bloodfusion.. this ability isn't all that useful. If you look at the player base how many undeads are worth bloodfusing? There is Damion... and Damion.

Enthrall is a once every 10 minute skill that is undead restricted. Pretty useful but nowhere near the usefulness of smother.

In the overall scheme of things, when gray, Gradius clerics are better at group healing and damage output (pets + smother + better thac0). Once the Gradius clerics start moving towards reddish or bluish is when they see the huge drop off in viability.

huklebuc
Re: Re: Gradius Clerics vs. Aramon Clerics
Thursday, March 29th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
As for bloodfusion.. this ability isn't all that useful. If you look at the player base how many undeads are worth bloodfusing? There is Damion... and Damion.


Damn Straight

merton
Re: Gradius Clerics vs. Aramon Clerics
Friday, March 30th, 2007 at 10:57 am
And who would want to waste hard earned experience on Damion anyway. I say suicide Damion and make him a decent class... like a monk

huklebuc
Re: Gradius Clerics vs. Aramon Clerics
Friday, March 30th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Do us all a favor, pull your lip over your head and swallow.

delta
Watcher
Re: Gradius Clerics vs. Aramon Clerics
Monday, April 2nd, 2007 at 1:05 pm
So it appears that conjured pets cast spells based on their level, rather than on the level of the player. Of course, no level 10 player is going to conjure a level 20 pet; but it seems that level 13 pets gain the ability to cast level 4 spells.

Is this necessarily an advantage? No. Casting level 4 spells is useful against other players and against perms, but that is pretty much it. In normal mob-killing, I'd rather my pet cast level 2 spells and conserve its MP, than suddenly bust out level 4 spells and drain all its MP on one mob. Also, consider that you do not gain XP for any damage done by your pet's magical attacks.

I've posted two caps below, where I conjured a level 13 earth elemental. As a level 14 Gradius cleric, most of the pets I conjure are between levels 10 to 12, but occasionally (about 1 in 10 pets), I conjure a level 13 pet.

Cap 1: Pet drains its MP on a rowdy sailor, and I only get 10 XP.

(91 H 54 M 73044X): pet k row
 k row
The earth elemental attacks the rowdy sailor.
The earth elemental casts a engulf spell on the rowdy sailor.
(91 H 54 M 73044X): You slashed the rowdy sailor for 13 damage.
You killed the rowdy sailor.
You gained 10 experience for the death of the rowdy sailor.
The rowdy sailor was carrying: 12 gold coins.


Cap 2: Pet busts out most of its 50 or so MP on one mob. (Check out the weak smother too).

Highport Docks

You are in Highport's Dock District.
If Highport had a navy, then the dock district would be
two times as big as it currently is. As is, Highport's
only defense at sea is through privateers - pirates
that hunt down other pirates. Mayor Meiss is pushing
for naval funds, but the people with influence are
convinced Highport is never in any danger from anyone.
Obvious exits: east, southwest, south, dock.
You see two dock harlots, eight dock workers, a grizzled boatswain.

(94 H 56 M): time
Game-Time: 9:45 AM.
Real-Time: Mon Apr  2 12:44:04 2007 (EST).
Time left before next pray: 0 seconds.
Time left before next earth-smother: 0 seconds.
(94 H 56 M): pray
You feel extremely pious.
(94 H 56 M): conj
(94 H 56 M): You conjure a earth elemental.
An earth elemental just arrived.
(94 H 56 M): pet k g
 k g
 smother g
The earth elemental attacks the grizzled boatswain.
(94 H 56 M): You slashed the grizzled boatswain for 17 damage.
(94 H 56 M): You smothered the grizzled boatswain for 1 damage.
The grizzled boatswain resisted your smother!
(94 H 56 M): The earth elemental hit the grizzled boatswain for 9 damage.

(94 H 56 M): k g
You slashed the grizzled boatswain for 16 damage.
The earth elemental casts a engulf spell on the grizzled boatswain.
The grizzled boatswain hit you for 20 damage.
(74 H 56 M): k g
You missed.
(74 H 56 M): !
Please wait 3 more seconds.
(74 H 56 M): The earth elemental misses the grizzled boatswain.
(74 H 56 M): l earth
You see an earth elemental.
It's wearing a tag that says, 'Delta's, hands off!'.
She is in excellent condition.
She is attacking grizzled boatswain.
She shouldn't be too tough to kill.
She isn't holding anything.
(74 H 56 M): k gri
You missed.
(74 H 56 M): The earth elemental misses the grizzled boatswain.
(74 H 56 M): k gri
You slashed the grizzled boatswain for 13 damage.
The earth elemental misses the grizzled boatswain.
(74 H 56 M): k gri
You slashed the grizzled boatswain for 19 damage.
(74 H 56 M): The earth elemental hit the grizzled boatswain for 7 damage.

(74 H 56 M): l griz
You see a grizzled boatswain.
He spends a lot of time at sea. His whole body shows it.
He has quite a few wounds.
He looks very angry at you.
He is attacking you.
He is not quite as good as you.
(74 H 56 M): k g
You missed.
The earth elemental casts a engulf spell on the grizzled boatswain.
(74 H 56 M): The grizzled boatswain hit you for 21 damage.
(53 H 56 M): k gri
You slashed the grizzled boatswain for 14 damage.
(53 H 56 M): c v

(53 H 56 M): The earth elemental casts a engulf spell on the grizzled boa
tswain.
(53 H 56 M): Vigor spell cast.

(68 H 54 M): The grizzled boatswain hit you for 17 damage.
(51 H 54 M): k g
The Airship Challenger arrives at the Kab'Tung Oasis.

(51 H 54 M): You slashed the grizzled boatswain for 18 damage.
You killed the grizzled boatswain.
You gained 385 experience for the death of the grizzled boatswain.
The grizzled boatswain was carrying: 150 gold coins.
(51 H 54 M): The 5th dock worker picked up 150 gold coins.
(51 H 54 M): A rowdy sailor just arrived.
(55 H 56 M): Two rowdy sailors just arrived.


Now, my question is for Aramon clerics - when do your pets cast level 4 spells?

Monster
Re: Gradius Clerics vs. Aramon Clerics
Monday, April 2nd, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Mine don't even cast level 3 yet Sad

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